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Penulis Topik: HIV cause AIDS?  (Dibaca 227161 kali)

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Offline Idad

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HIV cause AIDS?
« pada: Juli 03, 2010, 10:47:51 PM »
Ada yang bilang HIV menyebabkan AIDS, ada juga yang bilang tidak?

AIDS, merupakan Acquired Immunodeficiency Sydnrome, yaitu sindrom (kumpulan gejala klinis) yang terjadi akibat Immunodeficiency (Penurunan Sistem Imun, baik kerja maupun fungsinya) yang Acuired (gotten through).

HIV menyebabkan AIDS karena kerja HIV dalam tubuh sel inang diketahui dapat menyebabkan penurunan sistem imun tubuh.

Tapi, apakah hanya HIV saja yang menyebabkan AIDS? Entahlah, setahu saya sampai sekarang, dimanusia, hanya HIV yang menyebabkan AIDS. Untuk di kedokteran hewan, ada yang namanya BIV (Bovine Immunodeficiency Virus), apakah ini juga bisa disebut menyebabkan AIDS (tapi pada hewan)?

Yang jelas, virus AIDS itu ada. Dan kerjanya menurunkan sistem Imun. Tapi, apakah hanya HIV saja yang menyebabkan AIDS, itu saya juga kurang tahu.
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Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #1 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 02:08:47 AM »
@Mas Ireng: saya kopaskan bahan sebelah

10 Scientific Reasons Why HIV Cannot Cause AIDS

For anyone convinced that HIV has been isolated.

   1. HIV is neutralized by antibody immunity.

      When a person tests "positive" to HIV, it means they carry antibodies to the virus. Which means that they have immunity. This is clear from the fact that there is so little virus to be found in HIV antibody positive people.* The antibodies have done their job and the virus is well under control. There are no known viruses that cause illness in every case only long after antibodies appear, which is how AIDS is defined.

      One has to question why 12 years and billions of dollars have been spent developing a vaccine against HIV when the best vaccine possible already exists when a person tests positive.

   2. HIV does not kill the T cells it infects.

      HIV can only kill T cells under rare laboratory conditions. In fact, HIV researchers use T cells to grow the virus because T cells live quite compatibly with HIV.

   3. HIV does not infect enough T cells to cause AIDS.

      HIV never infects more than 1 out of 1000 T cells; commonly just 1 out of 10,000 T cells.* People replace 5% of their T cells per day. Simple math shows that HIV cannot infect enough T cells to cause them to die off and bring down the whole immune system. Even supporters of the HIV/AIDS theory admit that this low level of T cell infection is a challenge to explain.

      * The recent invention of "viral load" testing is an attempt to explain away the fact that almost no sign of HIV can be found by standard measurements. Viral load tests do not measure viable virus and have not been approved by the FDA to diagnose HIV infection.

   4. HIV has no AIDS causing gene.

      HIV has no specific gene or unique reason to cause AIDS. All retroviruses have only 3 major genes, GAG, ENV and POL and only 6 minor genes. Because the genes and genetic sequences are so limited in these simple organisms, they need all their genes to replicate. HIV is almost identical to all other retroviruses genetically. There are 50 to 100 different retroviruses that can be found in every healthy human body. All have been brought under control by antibody response. HIV behaves no differently than any of these others. If none of these other retroviruses cause AIDS, why should HIV? And vice versa, if HIV causes AIDS, why don't all the rest? So there is no genetic reason why HIV would cause AIDS.

   5. There is no such thing as a "slow virus".

      HIV is claimed to take 10 to 20 years (the "latency period") after infection to cause AIDS. The only way to explain this is to give HIV magical abilities to reactivate, mutate, migrate and hibernate. These slow virus hypotheses were devised by scientists who used them to buy time when their viruses failed to perform. The slow virus proponents point to examples like the herpes viruses that smolder and hide and then reemerge in persons when they have suppressed immunity and cannot generate a sufficient defense. These differ greatly from HIV because large amounts of active virus can be found causing specific symptoms. By contrast, a slow virus is an invention credited with the ability to cause disease only years after infection - termed the latency period - in previously healthy persons, regardless of their state of immunity. Such a concept allows scientists to blame a long-neutralized virus for any disease that appears decades after infection. HIV is inactive, then is said to cause 30 different diseases 10 years later. None of which are specific to HIV itself.

   6. HIV is not a new virus, so it could not cause a new epidemic.

      AIDS cases went from almost none in 1980 to a reported half a million in North America alone by 1995. Therefore, scientists claim HIV must be a new virus or we would have had an epidemic years or centuries ago. However, this claim does not stand up to the principals of Farr's Law. Farr's Law asserts that new infections spread exponentially through the population. HIV has been reported at more or less 1 million infected in the USA each year since they had a test for it in 1984. So it cannot be a new virus.

   7. HIV fails Koch's postulates.

      The universal test used by scientists to determine if a disease is truly being caused by an infection was designed over one hundred years ago by Robert Koch.

          HIV fails this test.

      HIV scientists claim that Koch's postulates are old and out of date with modern science. But they have stood the test of time. Disease hypotheses that ignored Koch's postulates have been a failure. The infectious theories of scurvy, pellagra, beriberi, SMON and virus/cancer research have all ignored Koch's postulates and all have been a dismal failure. And now HIV/AIDS?

   8. AIDS has remained in the original risk groups for over 15 years.

      If a disease does not spread it must be caused by something non-infectious. The US CDC reports (1997) confirm that AIDS is not spreading into the general population.

      AIDS cases by risk group (US):
      Admitted gay males    54%
      Admitted IV drug users    32%
      Hemophiliacs    1%
      Transfusion recipients    1%
      Claimed heterosexual contact    9%
      Pediatric    1%
      Total:    97%

     
   9. International comparisons of AIDS differ greatly.

      A germ related disease would effect the population in the same way around the world. An outbreak of cholera in India and Honduras would be much the same. But AIDS is totally different in the USA or western industrialized countries and Africa.

      USA    AFRICA
      Aids by sexual percentage
      85% male    50% male
      15% female    50% female
      AIDS among risk groups
      At least 90%    No risk group
      risk groups    (at random)
      AIDS diseases caused by microbes
      62%    90%
      Estimated HIV Infections
      1 million    14 million
      Official documented cases of AIDS (1995/96)
      513,486    442,735

      AIDS in Africa should be 14 times higher than in the US. Instead, people with HIV in the US develop AIDS 10 to 20 times faster than in Africa. This means that whereas the latency period in the US is predicted at 10 -15 years, in Africa it is at least 100 to 150 years!

  10. AIDS occurs without HIV Infection and most people with HIV never develop AIDS.

      The evidence for the HIV/AIDS hypothesis is based solely on correlation. Because the virus is found in most AIDS patients, it is thought to cause AIDS. But the logic of that assumption is flawed because CORRELATION DOES NOT PROVE CAUSATION.

      The common presence of HIV in AIDS patients is no more proof that HIV causes AIDS than the presence of birds on power lines is proof that birds cause power failures.

      So, if HIV and AIDS are only correlated, we should find AIDS without HIV and healthy people who have HIV and never get AIDS. That is exactly what is happening.

      In Africa studies have shown over 65% of AIDS patients are not HIV positive. In Africa a positive HIV antibody test result is not necessary for reporting AIDS cases; prolonged symptoms are enough.

      4621 cases of AIDS without HIV were found in the US Center for Disease Control (CDC) reports up to 1993. And the number could be much larger but the official definition of AIDS is designed to eliminate AIDS cases without HIV.

      AIDS is distinguished from virtually every other disease in history by the fact that it has no constant specific symptoms. AIDS is an umbrella term for 29 old diseases and one non-disease (a T4 cell count of less than 200/ul of blood) when a person has an HIV-positive antibody test result. The official CDC definition of AIDS excludes HIV-negative AIDS by definition.

      How the CDC's AIDS definition works:

          * Kaposi's Sarcoma + HIV = AIDS
          * Kaposi's Sarcoma - HIV = Kaposi's Sarcoma

          * Pneumonia + HIV = AIDS
          * Pneumonia - HIV = Pneumonia

          * Dementia + HIV = AIDS
          * Dementia - HIV = Dementia

      and so on...

          * <200 T4 cell count + HIV = AIDS
          * <200 T4 cell count - HIV = no disease

      There is no disease that is only caused by HIV. HIV is said to cause 29 old diseases when it is present. When it is not, the original causes of these diseases are responsible for them.

      The official definition of AIDS creates a 100% correlation between the virus and AIDS. This "correlation" is not objective or scientific, but is artificial and deceptively self-fulfilling.

      Estimated total HIV infected worldwide: 28,000,000 ?
      Total of reported AIDS cases worldwide: 1,400,000

95% percent of people with HIV do not have AIDS.


sebelumnya saya mau nanya, sumbernya mana ya? (saya tipe orang yang agak mementingkan referensi Mas, sori  :-\)

      95% percent of people with HIV do not have AIDS
Best Regards,


Astrawinata G

Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #2 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 02:15:07 AM »
pada artikel "numpang lewat" yang Anda berikan, dibawahnya adalah link
http://www.jmbblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/20100702_subscribe.jpg
itukah referensinya? ???
coba Forsa-ers cek apa isinya :)

saya bukan bermaksud cuma bisa mengelak dengan mendalihkan referensi. tapi itu yang saya tanyakan dulu, sebab saya pernah mengajukan tantangan untuk Mas untuk mengajukan 20 sumber ilmiah yang menyangkal HIV menyebabkan AIDS. Anda sudah memberikan 3. Dan saya ingin referensinya untuk memastikan sumbernya ilmiah :) monggo Mas....

Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #3 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 02:20:01 AM »
@Mas Idad: AIDS memang lebih spesifik ke akibat infeksi HIV :) kalau Mas bertanya apakah Immunodeficiency hanya karena HIV, tentu bukan :) salah satu yang bisa membuat sseorang kehilangan imunnya adalah penggunaan obat kortikosteroid berkepanjangan, obat terapi kanker (sitostatika), penyakit seperti leukemia, limfoma, kelainan genetik yang mengakibatkan agranulositosis, dan sebagainya :)

kalau yang

Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #4 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 02:36:16 AM »
kalau yang BIV, yang saya dapatkan sih memang mirip AIDS, tapi pada sapi :)

Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #5 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 08:55:20 AM »
berikut saya coba menjawab yang Mas Ireng sampaikan:

Kutip
1. HIV is neutralized by antibody immunity.

      When a person tests "positive" to HIV, it means they carry antibodies to the virus. Which means that they have immunity. This is clear from the fact that there is so little virus to be found in HIV antibody positive people.* The antibodies have done their job and the virus is well under control. There are no known viruses that cause illness in every case only long after antibodies appear, which is how AIDS is defined.

tes antibodi HIV yang positif menunjukkan seseorang pernah terinfeksi HIV dan bukan pernah sembuh dari HIV :)

Kutip
2. HIV does not kill the T cells it infects.

      HIV can only kill T cells under rare laboratory conditions. In fact, HIV researchers use T cells to grow the virus because T cells live quite compatibly with HIV.
seperti penjelasan di thread sebelumnya, cara HIV bekerja ada 3 cara :) silahkan dicek lagi...

Kutip
  3. HIV does not infect enough T cells to cause AIDS.

      HIV never infects more than 1 out of 1000 T cells; commonly just 1 out of 10,000 T cells.* People replace 5% of their T cells per day. Simple math shows that HIV cannot infect enough T cells to cause them to die off and bring down the whole immune system. Even supporters of the HIV/AIDS theory admit that this low level of T cell infection is a challenge to explain.

      * The recent invention of "viral load" testing is an attempt to explain away the fact that almost no sign of HIV can be found by standard measurements. Viral load tests do not measure viable virus and have not been approved by the FDA to diagnose HIV infection.

masalahnya adalah HIV akan terus menginfeksi secara perlahan2. dan infeksinya serta pengrusakannya kepada sel imun akan secara perlahan2 melebihi dari produksi sel imun yang baru. dari situ maka seseorang dengan AIDS akan pelan2 merasakan dirinya semakin gampang sakit2an.

juga viral load sudah di-approve FDA kok Mas :)

Kutip
4. HIV has no AIDS causing gene.

      HIV has no specific gene or unique reason to cause AIDS. All retroviruses have only 3 major genes, GAG, ENV and POL and only 6 minor genes. Because the genes and genetic sequences are so limited in these simple organisms, they need all their genes to replicate. HIV is almost identical to all other retroviruses genetically. There are 50 to 100 different retroviruses that can be found in every healthy human body. All have been brought under control by antibody response. HIV behaves no differently than any of these others. If none of these other retroviruses cause AIDS, why should HIV? And vice versa, if HIV causes AIDS, why don't all the rest? So there is no genetic reason why HIV would cause AIDS.

memang HIV tidak pernah bertujuan menyebabkan AIDS :) dia hanya butuh hidup, dan karena itu dia hanya punya gen yang penting untuk reproduksinya. Manusia sebagai inang yang mendapat penyakit dan menamakannya AIDS. kalau si virus, mana urusannya, yang penting baginya adalah dia bereproduksi  ::)

Kutip
5. There is no such thing as a "slow virus".

      HIV is claimed to take 10 to 20 years (the "latency period") after infection to cause AIDS. The only way to explain this is to give HIV magical abilities to reactivate, mutate, migrate and hibernate. These slow virus hypotheses were devised by scientists who used them to buy time when their viruses failed to perform. The slow virus proponents point to examples like the herpes viruses that smolder and hide and then reemerge in persons when they have suppressed immunity and cannot generate a sufficient defense. These differ greatly from HIV because large amounts of active virus can be found causing specific symptoms. By contrast, a slow virus is an invention credited with the ability to cause disease only years after infection - termed the latency period - in previously healthy persons, regardless of their state of immunity. Such a concept allows scientists to blame a long-neutralized virus for any disease that appears decades after infection. HIV is inactive, then is said to cause 30 different diseases 10 years later. None of which are specific to HIV itself.

memang begitu sifat khas HIV :) menurut daur hidupnya juga memang sudah jelas semua. kuman yang menginfeksi punya waktu yang disebut masa inkubasi. kebetulan memang masa inkubasi HIV (disebut juga window period) nya lama sekali...yang menjadi pertanyaan adalah apa yang menyebabkan dia "bangun".

Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #6 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 09:29:30 AM »
lanjutan....
Kutip
6. HIV is not a new virus, so it could not cause a new epidemic.

      AIDS cases went from almost none in 1980 to a reported half a million in North America alone by 1995. Therefore, scientists claim HIV must be a new virus or we would have had an epidemic years or centuries ago. However, this claim does not stand up to the principals of Farr's Law. Farr's Law asserts that new infections spread exponentially through the population. HIV has been reported at more or less 1 million infected in the USA each year since they had a test for it in 1984. So it cannot be a new virus.

kalau yang ini, ada hukun Farr's segala, saya sendiri kurang paham  ;D tapi dari sumber yang saya dapatkan (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2308183) disebutkan Farr's law berlaku untuk AIDS :) saya rasa Pubmed adalah sumber yang bisa dipercaya...

Kutip
7. HIV fails Koch's postulates.

      The universal test used by scientists to determine if a disease is truly being caused by an infection was designed over one hundred years ago by Robert Koch.

          HIV fails this test.

      HIV scientists claim that Koch's postulates are old and out of date with modern science. But they have stood the test of time. Disease hypotheses that ignored Koch's postulates have been a failure. The infectious theories of scurvy, pellagra, beriberi, SMON and virus/cancer research have all ignored Koch's postulates and all have been a dismal failure. And now HIV/AIDS?

postulat Koch jelas dipenuhi oleh HIV :) (Anda sudah tahu isi postulat Koch kan?) scurvy, pellagra, beriberi, itu semua adalah penyakit defisiensi gizi. jelas saja akan lari dari post.Koch :) mengenai virus/cancer? Virus jelas memenuhi. cancer yang disebabkan oleh mikroorganisme (kanker serviks,dll) juga memenuhi  ;)

Kutip
8. AIDS has remained in the original risk groups for over 15 years.

      If a disease does not spread it must be caused by something non-infectious. The US CDC reports (1997) confirm that AIDS is not spreading into the general population.

      AIDS cases by risk group (US):
      Admitted gay males    54%
      Admitted IV drug users    32%
      Hemophiliacs    1%
      Transfusion recipients    1%
      Claimed heterosexual contact    9%
      Pediatric    1%
      Total:    97%

ini yang dinamakan metode penyuluhan dan pencegahan yang efektif, Mas Ireng :) cacar air sekarang tidak lagi dijumpai di Indonesia karena dicegah dengan vaksin, apakah berarti cacar air dulu disebabkan virus dan cacar air sekarang bukan oleh agen infeksius?  ::)

Kutip
   9. International comparisons of AIDS differ greatly.

      A germ related disease would effect the population in the same way around the world. An outbreak of cholera in India and Honduras would be much the same. But AIDS is totally different in the USA or western industrialized countries and Africa.

      USA    AFRICA
      Aids by sexual percentage
      85% male    50% male
      15% female    50% female
      AIDS among risk groups
      At least 90%    No risk group
      risk groups    (at random)
      AIDS diseases caused by microbes
      62%    90%
      Estimated HIV Infections
      1 million    14 million
      Official documented cases of AIDS (1995/96)
      513,486    442,735

      AIDS in Africa should be 14 times higher than in the US. Instead, people with HIV in the US develop AIDS 10 to 20 times faster than in Africa. This means that whereas the latency period in the US is predicted at 10 -15 years, in Africa it is at least 100 to 150 years!

ini kalau kita bermain angka sederhana, terutama yang paragraf terakhir :) lebih banyak gay dan seks bebas di afrika atau di AS, Mas?  ;) AIDS paling gampang menyebar melalui seks bebas toh....

Kutip
10. AIDS occurs without HIV Infection and most people with HIV never develop AIDS.

      The evidence for the HIV/AIDS hypothesis is based solely on correlation. Because the virus is found in most AIDS patients, it is thought to cause AIDS. But the logic of that assumption is flawed because CORRELATION DOES NOT PROVE CAUSATION.

      The common presence of HIV in AIDS patients is no more proof that HIV causes AIDS than the presence of birds on power lines is proof that birds cause power failures.

      So, if HIV and AIDS are only correlated, we should find AIDS without HIV and healthy people who have HIV and never get AIDS. That is exactly what is happening.

      In Africa studies have shown over 65% of AIDS patients are not HIV positive. In Africa a positive HIV antibody test result is not necessary for reporting AIDS cases; prolonged symptoms are enough.

      4621 cases of AIDS without HIV were found in the US Center for Disease Control (CDC) reports up to 1993. And the number could be much larger but the official definition of AIDS is designed to eliminate AIDS cases without HIV.

      AIDS is distinguished from virtually every other disease in history by the fact that it has no constant specific symptoms. AIDS is an umbrella term for 29 old diseases and one non-disease (a T4 cell count of less than 200/ul of blood) when a person has an HIV-positive antibody test result. The official CDC definition of AIDS excludes HIV-negative AIDS by definition.

      How the CDC's AIDS definition works:

          * Kaposi's Sarcoma + HIV = AIDS
          * Kaposi's Sarcoma - HIV = Kaposi's Sarcoma

          * Pneumonia + HIV = AIDS
          * Pneumonia - HIV = Pneumonia

          * Dementia + HIV = AIDS
          * Dementia - HIV = Dementia

      and so on...

          * <200 T4 cell count + HIV = AIDS
          * <200 T4 cell count - HIV = no disease

      There is no disease that is only caused by HIV. HIV is said to cause 29 old diseases when it is present. When it is not, the original causes of these diseases are responsible for them.

      The official definition of AIDS creates a 100% correlation between the virus and AIDS. This "correlation" is not objective or scientific, but is artificial and deceptively self-fulfilling.

      Estimated total HIV infected worldwide: 28,000,000 ?
      Total of reported AIDS cases worldwide: 1,400,000

95% percent of people with HIV do not have AIDS.

semua yang terkena HIV akan memasuki window period yang bervariasi lamanya...masalahnya apakah sang penulis masih punya waktu untuk menunggu orang yang mendapat HIV selama 10 tahun lagi untuk membuktikannya? kalau tidak sabar pake model prospektif, kenapa ga coba pakai yang retrospektif? kenapa pakai istilah "95% percent of people with HIV do not have AIDS", bukan "95% percent of people with AIDS did not have HIV"?

istilah CDC yang begitu dimaksudkan untuk menaruh kewaspadaan pada pasien dengan HIV. bila telah muncul penyakit pada orang HIV+, maka segera curigai bahwa window period nya sudah terlewati dan "masa perang" sudah dimulai....

HIV menyebabkan AIDS. memang bukan merupakan penyakit yang nampak spesifik, namun HIV menyebabkan terbukanya gerbang menuju infeksi multipel....jadi ibaratnya dia bukan teroris yang menghancurkan negara dengan bom, tapi membunuh semua aparat keamanan sehingga negaranya sangat mudah diserang...


monggo Mas  ;)

Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #7 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 09:39:17 AM »
ini kopas dari artikel Mas Ireng yang ketiga

HIV does NOT cause AIDS


HIV does NOT cause AIDS. HIV does not cause anything. A staggering statement given the hype and acceptance by the scientific establishment and, through them, the public that the HIV virus is the only cause of AIDS. HIV is a weak virus and does not dismantle the immune system. Nor is AIDS passed on sexually.

There are two main types of virus. Using the airplane analogy, you could call one of these virus strains a “pilot” virus. It can change the nature of a cell and steer it into disease. This usually happens very quickly after the virus takes hold. Then there is the “passenger” virus which lives off the cell, goes along for the ride, but never affects the cell to the extent that it causes disease.


HIV is a passenger virus!

s1o how on earth did it become the big boogy man virus of the world? The person who announced that HIV caused AIDS was an American, Doctor Robert Gallo. He has since been accused of professional misconduct, his test has been exposed as fraudulent, and two of his laboratory executives have been convicted of criminal offenses. Tens of millions of people are tested for HIV antibodies every year and Dr Gallo, who patented his “test”, gets a royalty for every one.

Luc Montagnier, Gallo’s partner in the HIV-causes-AIDS theory, has since admitted in 1989: “HIV is not capable of causing the destruction of the immune system which is seen in people with AIDS”. Nearly 500 scientists across the world agree with him. So does Dr Robert E Wilner, author of the book ‘The Deadly Deception. The Proof That Sex And HIV Absolutely Do Not Cause AIDS’.

Dr Wilner even injected himself with the HIV virus on a television chat show in Spain to support his claims. Other doctors and authors come to the same conclusions, among them Peter Duesberg PhD and John Yiamouyiannis PhD, in their book, ‘AIDS: The Good News Is That HIV Doesn’t Cause It. The Bad News Is “Recreational Drugs” And Medical Treatments Like AZT Do’. That’s a long title, but it sums up the situation. People are dying of AIDS because of the treatments used to “treat” AIDS! It works like this.

Now it is accepted by the establishment and the people that HIV causes AIDS, the system has built this myth into its whole diagnosis and “treatment”. You go to the doctor and you are told your HIV test was positive(positive only for the HIV antibodies, by the way, they don’t actually test for the virus itself). Because of the propaganda, many people already begin to die emotionally and mentally when they are told they are HIV positive. They have been conditioned to believe that death is inevitable.

The fear of death leads them to accept, often demand, the hyped-up “treatments” which are supposed to stop AIDS occurring. (They don’t.) The most famous is AZT, produced by the Wellcome organisation, owned, wait for it, by the Rockefellers, one of the key manipulating families in the New World Order.

AZT was developed as an anti-cancer drug to be used in chemotherapy, but it was found to be too toxic even for that! AZT’s effect in the “treatment” of cancer was to kill cells – simple as that – not just to kill cancer cells , but to kill cells, cancerous and healthy. The question, and this is accepted even by the medical establishment, was: would AZT kill the cancer cells before it had killed so many healthy cells that it killed the body? This is the drug used to “treat” HIV. What is its effect?

It destroys the immune system, so it is CAUSING AIDS. People are dying from the treatment, not the HIV. AIDS is simply the breakdown of the immune system, for which there are endless causes, none of them passed on through sex. That’s another con which has made a fortune for condom manufacturers and created enormous fear around the expression of our sexuality and the release and expansion of our creative force.
















menurut saya sudah sepantasnya Dr.Robert Gallo mendapat royalti atas pekerjaannya :) wajar toh seseorang mendapatkan upah dan royalti atas kerja kerasnya....

juga dari artikel yang Mas kirimkan, jawabannya sudah saya postingkan sebelumnya. AIDS memang lebih spesifik ke akibat infeksi HIV  kalau Mas bertanya apakah Immunodeficiency hanya karena HIV, tentu bukan  salah satu yang bisa membuat sseorang kehilangan imunnya adalah penggunaan obat kortikosteroid berkepanjangan, obat terapi kanker (sitostatika), penyakit seperti leukemia, limfoma, kelainan genetik yang mengakibatkan agranulositosis, dan sebagainya :)

monggo Mas  ;)

Offline semut-ireng

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #8 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 02:54:10 PM »
pada artikel "numpang lewat" yang Anda berikan, dibawahnya adalah link
http://www.jmbblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/20100702_subscribe.jpg
itukah referensinya? ???
coba Forsa-ers cek apa isinya :)

saya bukan bermaksud cuma bisa mengelak dengan mendalihkan referensi. tapi itu yang saya tanyakan dulu, sebab saya pernah mengajukan tantangan untuk Mas untuk mengajukan 20 sumber ilmiah yang menyangkal HIV menyebabkan AIDS. Anda sudah memberikan 3. Dan saya ingin referensinya untuk memastikan sumbernya ilmiah :) monggo Mas....

Saya tidak merespon ' tantangan '  anda itu karena menurut pendapat saya ' tantangan ' itu tidak semestinya anda sampaikan.   Forum diskusi adalah forum adu argumentasi,  dan dalam adu argumentasi itu kemudian dikuatkan dengan referensi / link dsbnya,  itu sah2 saja.   Tetapi kemudian bila referensi anda minta  dihadapkan dengan referensi,  jangankan hanya 20 referensi,  100 atau lebih referensi yang saling bertentangan,  tetap juga akan bertentangan.

Kutipan atau link yang saya sampaikan bukan dalam rangka menjawab ' tantangan ' anda  ........ lebih2 coba lihat di artikel  " numpang lewat ".    Anda menganggap itu referensi ilmiah   ??    Bukankah di situ ada tulisan menyebut Gallo .....dstnya,  sangat jelas sekali tulisan itu adalah suatu opini  ...........bukan sumber ilmiah.   Satu2nya yang saya sampaikan dan bisa disebut referensi ilmiah adalah buku karangan de Harven ........... :)
« Edit Terakhir: Juli 04, 2010, 03:02:03 PM oleh semut-ireng »

Offline semut-ireng

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #9 pada: Juli 04, 2010, 03:26:47 PM »
@ Bung Idad ;  dengan tulus saya sampaikan penghargaan  saya.  Ide anda mengalihkan diskusi dari thread sebelah ke thread ini adalah ide yang bagus sekali  ......dan bijaksana.   


@Bung Astrawinata G ;  Terima kasih anda telah kopaskan dari thread sebelah ke thread ini.   Dan terima kasih anda telah memberikan argumentasi yang cukup jelas untuk dipahami.   Mari kita cermati bersama-sama ........

Sementara komen dari saya berupa pertanyaan,  dan pertanyaan yang saya ajukan ini hanya untuk menegaskan saja  :

1.  Anda betul2 merasa yakin bahwa HIV itu virus yang ganas,  dan bisa memberikan bukti ilmiahnya ??

2.  Anda betul2 merasa yakin bahwa postulat Koch itu masih  "  layak  "  dan postulat Koch itu seharusnya digunakan dalam sains modern,  khususnya untuk HIV ?

Anda bilang postulat Koch jelas dipenuhi oleh  HIV,  bisa memberikan data siapa yang telah berhasil melakukan itu  ??  Syukur kalau yang berhasil melakukan itu dari Indonesia ......

monggo ............
« Edit Terakhir: Juli 04, 2010, 03:50:01 PM oleh semut-ireng »

Offline Astrawinata G

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #10 pada: Juli 05, 2010, 01:40:15 AM »
untuk pertanyaan Mas yang nomor 1, ini saya mendapat link. sumbernya dari NEJM. saya baca sekilas sepertinya relevan untuk menjawab pertanyaan pertama :)

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/21/2287

disebelah kanan atas ada versi pdf nya, mungkin kalau Mas tertarik boleh diklik
memang saya akui sulit mencari jurnal yang menjawab pertanyaan background. kalaupun ada jurnal yang sudah lama diterbitkan. fokus sekarang bagi para peneliti adalah untuk menemukan jawaban pertanyaan foregroundnya....

kalau postulat Koch, saya dapat link ini http://pathmicro.med.sc.edu/lecture/hiv13a.htm dan http://www.thebody.com/content/esp/art2654.html

saya rasa ini referensi yang cukup reliable :) dan saya tidak bisa mendapatkan sumber yang memang dari Indonesia :( tidak ada yang mau meneliti sih.....

memang saya akui HIV dan AIDS masih sangat diperdebatkan. Duesberg phenomenon tetap hidup sampai sekarang dan terus ada peneliti yang mendukung serta menulis opini mereka. mungkin hanya waktu yang bisa menjawab yang mana yang benar dan yang mana yang hoax :D

monggo Mas :)

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #11 pada: Juli 05, 2010, 12:58:07 PM »
Tadinya saya mengira kalau postulat Koch itu sudah diabaikan atau tidak digunakan lagi,  tetapi ternyata @Bung Astrawinata G masih percaya,   dan memang semestinya harus digunakan untuk menguji HIV.

Dari link www.thebody.com/content/esp/art2654.html  tertulis :   Prior to this 1997 report, fulfillment of Koch's third and fourth postulates was lacking.   Apa maksudnya ?   Bukankah untuk tahap 3 dan 4 postulat Koch dikatakan disitu tidak cukup bukti ?    Maaf kalau saya salah tolong dikoreksi.

Butir2 kutipan yang saya sampaikan yl memang kurang lengkap,  karena terlalu panjang 'opini '-nya.    Untuk butir 7 berkaitan dengan Postulat Koch ada penjelasannya lagi sbb  :


 Koch's postulates state:

The organism:

1. must be found in all cases of the disease.
2. must be isolated from the host and grown in pure culture.
3. must cause the same disease when injected into a new, healthy host.
4. must be found growing again in the newly diseased host.

Here is how HIV does on this test:

1. The germ must be found in all cases of the diseases. FAILS.
    * 10 to 20% of AIDS patients have no HIV at all.
    * Only tiny amounts of HIV, usually dormant, can be found in any AIDS patient.

2. The germ must be isolated from the host and grown in pure culture. PASSES - but only on a technicality.
    * Huge amounts of cell tissue are needed to find HIV.
    * HIV needs a chemically induced process to reactivate.
    * By contrast, large amounts of active virus can be found with other viruses.

3. The germ must cause the same disease when injected into a new, healthy host. FAILS - hands down.
    * HIV does not cause AIDS in test animals like chimpanzees.
    * human health care workers accidentally infected with HIV rarely get AIDS unless they use recreational drugs ... or AZT.

4. The germ must be found growing again in the newly diseased host. FAILS - for not passing postulate 3.

Selengkapnya bisa dibaca :

http://www.healtoronto.com/10reasons.html

Apa barangkali karena HIV tidak memenuhi Postulat Koch itu,  lalu ada yang membuat karikatur tentang Robert C.Gallo seperti terlihat di link ini  :

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/emma_holister/CA_Koch.jpg
« Edit Terakhir: Juli 05, 2010, 01:04:50 PM oleh semut-ireng »

Offline riandono

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #12 pada: Juli 05, 2010, 01:59:21 PM »
Tadinya saya mengira kalau postulat Koch itu sudah diabaikan atau tidak digunakan lagi,&nbsp; tetapi ternyata @Bung Astrawinata G masih percaya,&nbsp; &nbsp;dan memang semestinya harus digunakan untuk menguji HIV.

Yang ngotot HIV harus memenuhi postulat Koch adalah justru para penentang HIV-AIDS, sepertinya Robert Johnston dkk penulis link yg anda pake http://www.healtoronto.com/10reasons.html

Masalah postulat Koch vs HIV itu ceritanya begini:
Bpk. Peter Duesberg (seorang pioner AIDS denialist seperti anda) adalah org yang bilang HIV &nbsp;tidak memenuhi postulat koch. Dia mengatakan itu pada tahun 1987, pada tahun itu memang HIV tidak dapat dibuktikan memenuhi postulat koch.

Dari link www.thebody.com/content/esp/art2654.html&nbsp; tertulis :&nbsp; &nbsp;Prior to this 1997 report, fulfillment of Koch's third and fourth postulates was lacking.&nbsp; &nbsp;Apa maksudnya ?&nbsp; &nbsp;Bukankah untuk tahap 3 dan 4 postulat Koch dikatakan disitu tidak cukup bukti ?&nbsp; &nbsp; Maaf kalau saya salah tolong dikoreksi.

Prior
to .... Dlm bahasa indonesia artinya: Sebelum ...



Here is how HIV does on this test:

1. The germ must be found in all cases of the diseases. FAILS.
&nbsp; &nbsp; * 10 to 20% of AIDS patients have no HIV at all.
&nbsp; &nbsp; * Only tiny amounts of HIV, usually dormant, can be found in any AIDS patient.

2. The germ must be isolated from the host and grown in pure culture. PASSES - but only on a technicality.
&nbsp; &nbsp; * Huge amounts of cell tissue are needed to find HIV.
&nbsp; &nbsp; * HIV needs a chemically induced process to reactivate.
&nbsp; &nbsp; * By contrast, large amounts of active virus can be found with other viruses.

3. The germ must cause the same disease when injected into a new, healthy host. FAILS - hands down.
&nbsp; &nbsp; * HIV does not cause AIDS in test animals like chimpanzees.
&nbsp; &nbsp; * human health care workers accidentally infected with HIV rarely get AIDS unless they use recreational drugs ... or AZT.

4. The germ must be found growing again in the newly diseased host. FAILS - for not passing postulate 3.

saat ini, semua postulat ini sudah terpenuhi.


NB: mas ireng kalo bisa jgn pake argumen2 lama kaum denialist, seperti hipotesis duesberg, Durban Declaration Rebuttal, Ten Lies .. dsb
skrg argumen2 itu udah patah. Mgkn mas ireng perlu cari yg lain yg lebih up to date
« Edit Terakhir: Juli 05, 2010, 02:04:38 PM oleh riandono »

Offline Huriah M Putra

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #13 pada: Juli 05, 2010, 02:08:57 PM »
Bukannya treponema pallidum tidak bisa dikultur kan?
Apakah berarti tidak memenuhi Postulat Koch?

Sebenarnya fungsi postulat koch itu apaan sih?
OOT OOT OOT..!!!

Offline riandono

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Re: HIV cause AIDS?
« Jawab #14 pada: Juli 05, 2010, 02:19:45 PM »
Postulat koch sebenarnya hanya ingin memberikan parameter kausalitas suatu penyakit infeksi.

 

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