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Penulis Topik: Please help me with my linguistics school project/Tolong bantu saya dengan proyek linguistik sekolah  (Dibaca 2904 kali)

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Offline Omacka

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Hello, I am a Czech high school student and I'm working on a liguistic project studying the origin of language. For that, I need to know what do the Indonesians connect with certain words (the meanings differ so much that the concept is totally uncomparable). If you're willing to help me, please fill in one or both of the surveys I've created in this manner:

1. Arti formal kata: goo.gl/IP5Xl6
2. Peresaan dan emosi: goo.gl/sCX6IQ

In the Czech republic I will, then study how do the Czechs percieve those words (they don't know the meaning so they have to rely just on their emotional and formal feeling). I'll test the so called hypotheses ding-dong, pooh-pooh and bow-bow

Thank you! If you have any suggestions concerning the research, I'll appreciate it as well.

Offline ytridyrevsielixetuls

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Re:Please help me with my linguistic project
« Jawab #1 pada: Desember 05, 2016, 03:38:52 AM »
Hello, I am a Czech high school student and I'm working on a liguistic project studying the origin of language. For that, I need to know what do the Indonesians connect with certain words (the meanings differ so much that the concept is totally uncomparable). If you're willing to help me, please fill in one or both of the surveys I've created in this manner:

In the Czech republic I will, then study how do the Czechs percieve those words (they don't know the meaning so they have to rely just on their emotional and formal feeling). I'll test the so called hypotheses ding-dong, pooh-pooh and bow-bow

Thank you! If you have any suggestions concerning the research, I'll appreciate it as well.

Hey, nice survey you have there, mate. :)

1. Arti formal kata: goo.gl/IP5Xl6

i think i need to give responses to the questions in the link. in order to give you more info. :D

"kelapa" is simply translated "coconut"
whether is its mature or young, brown or green. we also say "kelapa muda" to call "young/green coconut"
however, we don't say "susu kelapa".
"air kelapa" can be translated as "coconut milk" and "coconut water"


"menangis" is simply translated "cry"
e.g "my mother is crying". it means "ibu saya sedang menangis" (we sometimes remove the word "sedang" although it is present continues tense)


"hutan" means "forest", "jungle", and "woods"
whatever you describe it. and whatever view you show us,

-Wild land overgrown with dense vegetation
-An impenetrable thicket or tangled mass of tropical vegetation
-A tract overgrown with thickets or masses of vegetation
-A large area of land covered with trees and plants, usually larger than a wood, or the trees and plants themselves where a lot of wild and poisonous animals live (and witches and warlocks too) :D

we Indonesians call it "hutan".


I honestly have no idea why you are showing us a picture of "bat soup"
yes there are Indonesians who eat "bats" but most don't.
we call all kinds of bats "kelelawar"

FYI, most Indonesians also can't make difference between "crow" and "raven".
we call both "gagak"


when we hear the word "badai" we likely think of combination of strong wind, cold temperature, rain, and thunders
we don't think of hurricane, winter storm, or dust storm unless you tell us the specific description of "badai"


"berair" in Indonesia commonly involves :

-Eyes glistened with tears
-Watery forest or grass or road
-And many more

it is easy to consider something "berair" when having conversation in Indonesian however personally i find it difficult to explain it in English. it is difficult to tell you if something is properly called "berair" LOL :D


we most Indonesians often don't really make much difference between "smooth skin" and "soft skin". both can be considered "kulit halus" and "kulit lembut" in Indonesian (I think).
beside skin, the word "halus" also applies on scarf, animal's hair, and material

BTW be extremely careful when you hear an Indonesian say "makhluk halus". it means "ghost". :D
also don't translate "soft drink" as "minuman halus" or "minuman lembut". say "minuman ringan" instead (ringan = light, the antonym of heavy)


"indah" means "beautiful", "pretty", "gorgeous" in English.
however, for humans, especially female, we call it "cantik" or "cakep" ("cantik" is more formal).
for scenery, flowers, song, music, poetry, house, and painting, we use "indah" or "bagus" (NOTE THAT, for scenery and flowers, we use "indah". and sometimes "cantik" is used but rare)


"kasar" may involves :

-Skin's condition that is the exact opposite of being smooth/soft.
-Rough material.
-Vulgar language/words.
-Violent behavior.
-Job that requires strong muscle. ya know, like construction work. it is considered "kasar". it is also considered "berat".
-And many more.


as for food, we most Indonesians don't eat burger. at least, we don't eat it often. burger and a lot of foreign foods may not be rare to find here. it is just in our daily breakfast, we usually pick rice (combined with meats, chickens, fish, vegetables, etc).

Google 4 sehat 5 sempurna or empat sehat lima sempurna on Image

and you get what most Indonesian think when hearing the word "makanan" (food)


and finally the last. running. i think no need to explain more. except in computing. don't say "progam ini sedang lari" to translate "this program is running" lol

2. Peresaan dan emosi: goo.gl/sCX6IQ

the second survey doesn't make sense. it asks for our feelings yet the options are mostly nouns. also most of the questions don't sound correct in Indonesian grammar. such as this question :

"Bagaimana perasaan Anda saat hutan?"

you get this when you translate it into English :

"How do you feel when forest?"

I would say "Bagaimana perasaan Anda saat berada di hutan?" (How do you feel when you are in forest?)
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Offline Omacka

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Re:Please help me with my linguistic project
« Jawab #2 pada: Desember 05, 2016, 09:01:59 AM »

"kelapa" is simply translated "coconut"
whether is its mature or young, brown or green. we also say "kelapa muda" to call "young/green coconut"
however, we don't say "susu kelapa".
"air kelapa" can be translated as "coconut milk" and "coconut water"

Oh yes, thank you. I just want to find out how did the word "kelapa" form. To me, for example, the word could represent the sound that a coconut makes when it hits the ground or the sound of knocking on a coconut. Though, it may sound like pouring of milk to someone. Therefore, I put there a coconut in all its forms.

I understand that you probably can't call the milk "kelapa" but I'm just trying to find out wheter it's the first connection the Indonesians have with it (Though, the first one might not be the best one to describe the origin but it's more probable). For example, "kuře" means "chicken" in Czech. But even though "kuře" primarily means the bird, when you say the word "kuře", a typical Czech will probably imagine chicken meat on pieces in some kind of dense dish.


"menangis" is simply translated "cry"
e.g "my mother is crying". it means "ibu saya sedang menangis" (we sometimes remove the word "sedang" although it is present continues tense)

Again, for example Europeans use much less eyes in their gesticulation. I wouldn't be surprised if Czechs were choosing different images, in big statistics you may spot some cultural differences.

"hutan" means "forest", "jungle", and "woods"
whatever you describe it. and whatever view you show us,

-Wild land overgrown with dense vegetation
-An impenetrable thicket or tangled mass of tropical vegetation
-A tract overgrown with thickets or masses of vegetation
-A large area of land covered with trees and plants, usually larger than a wood, or the trees and plants themselves where a lot of wild and poisonous animals live (and witches and warlocks too) :D

we Indonesians call it "hutan".

Oh, that's a nice thing to know! You know, I think forests have always been less dense in Europe. I wouldn't really call those things "les" (Czech for forest). Note that another english word for forests is "woods" - and the image of a forrest as source of fuel and building material may not be as important in Indonesia.

I honestly have no idea why you are showing us a picture of "bat soup"
yes there are Indonesians who eat "bats" but most don't.
we call all kinds of bats "kelelawar"

I'm sorry about that but I just have to study all the possibilities. I know it literally means "cave chicken" in Indonesian and even though you may not encounter bats in this situation today, I believe it might be a good visualization of how the people formerly encountered with bats.

when we hear the word "badai" we likely think of combination of strong wind, cold temperature, rain, and thunders
we don't think of hurricane, winter storm, or dust storm unless you tell us the specific description of "badai"

Hmm, this might be the result of the fact that here in Czech there are no hurricanes. Oh yes, strong wind, cold temperature, rain, and thunders, that's exactly what I imagine under the word "storm". Though, when I hear the word, I probably imagine bunch of "exaggerated" thoughts - it's the same for desert. Since I've never seen one, I'll probably imagine the image of a pretty straight piles of sand - even though I'm aware of the fact that most of deserts don't look like this.


"berair" in Indonesia commonly involves :

-Eyes glistened with tears
-Watery forest or grass or road
-And many more

it is easy to consider something "berair" when having conversation in Indonesian however personally i find it difficult to explain it in English. it is difficult to tell you if something is properly called "berair" LOL :D

The "juiciness" of fruit or meat is one example of the meaning of the word, I hope?


"indah" means "beautiful", "pretty", "gorgeous" in English.
however, for humans, especially female, we call it "cantik" or "cakep" ("cantik" is more formal).
for scenery, flowers, song, music, poetry, house, and painting, we use "indah" or "bagus" (NOTE THAT, for scenery and flowers, we use "indah". and sometimes "cantik" is used but rare)

So the picture of the woman is inappropriate?


as for food, we most Indonesians don't eat burger. at least, we don't eat it often. burger and a lot of foreign foods may not be rare to find here. it is just in our daily breakfast, we usually pick rice (combined with meats, chickens, fish, vegetables, etc).

Google 4 sehat 5 sempurna or empat sehat lima sempurna on Image

and you get what most Indonesian think when hearing the word "makanan" (food)

Oh, neither do we in Europe. But burger is some kind of symbol of food because it's so nutritious (not in the sense of vitamins). Thanks for the food pyramid, that could give me an insight. Though, I think the choice between the "nutritious" (burger) and the "diverse" (the pile of food) could give me some clue on the origin of the word. (also, an apple is kind of symbol of food. Some psychologists say that McDonald's uses the combination of green and red because that's what we evolved to spot in the nature but it's questionable)

the second survey doesn't make sense. it asks for our feelings yet the options are mostly nouns. also most of the questions don't sound correct in Indonesian grammar. such as this question :

I think I've corrected by now, does it sound better now?


"Bagaimana perasaan Anda saat hutan?"

you get this when you translate it into English :

"How do you feel when forest?"

I would say "Bagaimana perasaan Anda saat berada di hutan?" (How do you feel when you are in forest?)

The question should be: "How do you feel about the word: "hutan"?" OR "What do you imagine when someone says (when you hear the word/when you think about the word): "hutan"?"

Thank you, I really appreciate your work.

Offline ytridyrevsielixetuls

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Re:Please help me with my linguistic project
« Jawab #3 pada: Desember 06, 2016, 10:11:32 AM »
The "juiciness" of fruit or meat is one example of the meaning of the word, I hope?

not really common to consider "juiceness" of fruit or meat "berair" but I think its fine to attach the pics of meat or fruit.

So the picture of the woman is inappropriate?

the picture of a woman is just fine since "beautiful" can be translated both "cantik" and "indah". it is just its uncommon to say "indah" do describe human. in general, we use "cantik". using the word "indah" to describe human sounds poetic or philosophical.

however, it is common to say "indah" to describe parts of human body (to compliment/admire/worship them) with the exception of face.
we say "cantik" (for female) and "tampan" (for male).


here I am giving you some examples of how Indonesians use "indah" and "cantik". hopefully, it will help you understand when to place "cantik" and "indah" when you write sentences in Indonesian.

"She is a beautiful woman" = "Dia adalah seorang wanita yang cantik"

"That woman's eyes are beautiful" = "Mata wanita itu indah"

"She has beautiful skin" = "Dia punya kulit yang indah"

"She has a beautiful face" = "Dia punya wajah yang cantik"

"She has beautiful body" = "Dia punya tubuh yang indah"

"She is something beautiful!" = "Dia adalah sesuatu yang indah!"


I think I've corrected by now, does it sound better now?

actually it still doesn't sound make sense. the words you choose in most of the questions sound unusual to Indonesians. the only question I think it sounds make sense is the question about death (kematian).
by the way, it is not "peresaan" or "persaan". it is "perasaan".

here I am trying to help you correct the questions in the second survey :

for all questions, use the following format :

"Apa yang anda rasakan ketika mendengar kata [menangis, berdarah, hutan, and so forth] ?".

in English the sentence means "How do you feel when you hear the word......?"

as for number 4, I have no idea what "menjalakan" refers to. does it refer to "catching fish using a net" ? if "menjalakan" refers to "to run" then its not the right translation.

although the questions in second survey are about feeling and emotion, in Indonesian it is more proper to use "think" instead of "feel" for such questions.

The question should be: "How do you feel about the word: "hutan"?" OR "What do you imagine when someone says (when you hear the word/when you think about the word): "hutan"?"

actually the bold words would sound more proper. those formats are equivalent to my suggestion above.

Offline Im

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Re:Please help me with my linguistic project
« Jawab #4 pada: Desember 08, 2016, 12:18:40 AM »
And You Can Also Use Online Dictionary English-Indonesia !

Offline Omacka

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Re:Please help me with my linguistic project
« Jawab #5 pada: Desember 12, 2016, 05:42:37 AM »
Thank you all guys, I got another corrections, so that's why it's different from your proposals. I have already 10 responses  on average so I'm probably in the middle way to make it valuable.

Offline Omacka

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Please help me with my linguistics school project/Tolong bantu saya dengan proye
« Jawab #6 pada: Desember 12, 2016, 05:48:29 AM »
Hello, I am a Czech high school student and I'm working on a liguistic project studying the origin of language. For that, I need to know what do the Indonesians connect with certain words (the meanings differ so much that the concept is totally uncomparable). If you're willing to help me, please fill in one or both of the surveys I've created in this manner:

1. Arti formal kata: goo.gl/IP5Xl6
2. Peresaan dan emosi: goo.gl/sCX6IQ

In the Czech republic I will, then study how do the Czechs percieve those words (they don't know the meaning so they have to rely just on their emotional and formal feeling). I'll test the so called hypotheses ding-dong, pooh-pooh and bow-bow

Thank you! If you have any suggestions concerning the research, I'll appreciate it as well.

Offline ikraduya

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I've done it, btw i dont very understand what are you doing..
can you explain more?

Offline Omacka

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I've done it, btw i dont very understand what are you doing..
can you explain more?

After I get some answers, I might get an idea of how do the Indonesians feel about certain words. Then, I'll take those same words and give them in a survey for my fellow Czechs to guess the 1. meaning (so called ding-dong theory) 2. emotions they connect it with (pooh-pooh theory) and 3. some kind of "concept" of the word (ding dong theory)
The survey "Perasaan dan emosi" tests the emotion, "Arti formal kata" tests the concepts of the words in Indonesian. If you can share them with your friends, it would be really awesome because I couln't really get many Indonesians to fill it in (about 10 for now :)), though I'd need at least 30 of responses to make it worth it.

Offline ikraduya

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owhh..
okay i'm glad for helping you

Offline Omacka

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owhh..
okay i'm glad for helping you

Thank you, I really appreciate it.  In case you had any question, I'm open for a discussion.

Offline nʇǝʌ∀

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Hi, Omacka.  :)

you made two identical threads so I merged them into one. this thread should stay in the sub forum Sastra dan Budaya considering it is related to language and linguistics. and as far as i try to understand, you are basically working on your research on the origin of language by comparing the answers made by Indonesian respondents to the answers made by Czech respondents in your surveys.

I think this topic is quite interesting.
Ding-Dong, Pooh-Pooh, and Bow-Bow (wasn't it Bow-Wow?) theories are new to me. I googled them and as far as I can see, they basically explain how language was created/invented/made? CMIIW.

still, I fail to understand how they can be related to the surveys.
I mean, how do you develop your research by comparing Indonesians' answers to Czech's answers?

By the way, Welcome to ForSa.  :)
hope you would explain more to us about your project.
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Offline Omacka

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I think this topic is quite interesting.
Ding-Dong, Pooh-Pooh, and Bow-Bow (wasn't it Bow-Wow?) theories are new to me. I googled them and as far as I can see, they basically explain how language was created/invented/made? CMIIW.

Thank you. Yes these theories are about the origin of the language, indeed - but I wouldn´t use words like created/invented/made because the basic dogma of them is that language system had been "evolved" (partially as evolution in sense of vertical meme transmission) as a way of communicating between humans.

Today, we can´t really study how the "first humans" communicated but there are several theories descending from the "natural" ways we communicate today. Though, it´s hard to study that because vertical meme transmission means that our today´s language communication system is being passed on from generation to generation (mothers learn their children to speak), there´re certain ways we can observe hints of the outlook of the first language (so called proto-human language):

  • Observing how we tend to communicate by our nature - where do the genes for our brain networks head us?
  • Observing what does the language communication system we use today to express the concept of things in sound sequences

The first point lead us to study how the genes of ours differ from the genes of animals and, consequently, what do we tend to seek out from the speech and in which ways do the world languages generally express concepts.

The second point is what I´m trying to test within my project. With the help of this knowledge, you can test wheter the sound representations actually respond to the objects expressed by those words and in which way (otherwise, they could be just random conventions - which most of the words appear to be)

  • According to the bow-wow theory, they actually represent mostly the sounds we connect with them
  • According to the pooh-pooh theory they represent the emotion we connect with them
  • According to the ding-dong theory, the audial characterics of the words (the way you move your vocal apparatus when you pronounce them)

So it's not about much of a research of concrete languages  it´s rather about how the words (the specific audial signals) are connected with their meanings (the actual objects they´re describing), whatever is the cause of that.

From the survey Arti formal kata I will get the concept of the indonesian words and draw some kind of symbolic images that could represent the dind-dong theory. From the survey Perasaan dan emosi I will get the emotions the Indonesians feel about the words, so if the Czechs will guess correctly the emotions, it will look good for the pooh-pooh theory. If the Czechs will guess correctly only a conceptually simmilar words, I will assume the theory ding-dong applies the most for my words.

Offline Omacka

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Thanks for your time everyone. While we're on to it, could you please recommend me an Indonesian website where I could publish my survey? I'd like to collect at least 20 responses to make the survey worth it (maybe if you could share them beyond this forum, because I'm helpless about searching for those 20 people).

 

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